Covering, my pastor says it's legalistic

Common question: My pastor, elder, friend, Bible study teacher, paper boy ... are telling me that head covering is legalistic. What do I say to that?

Clevsea's Answer:

Do try to keep a sense of humor if possible. Do try to be as light-hearted as you can be when facing any opposition to covering. Quite often people are not teachable about the topic. Be sensitive to see how they are speaking.

The word Legalism is thrown around regarding the covering all the time. The sad thing is that folks don't very often just ask me or directly accuse me (to my face) of legalism. Instead they use the word an awful lot and just hope that I'll get it.

If anyone asked me I'd say, "I have heard of 3 different definitions of legalism but not one of those ever said that obeying the New Testament is legalism."

When I've said or written those words people are surprised! Sometimes they don't even know that covering is taught in the New Testament. I'm thinking that most pastors know the teaching is there. The only excuse I can make for a pastor is that he was influenced by some incorrect commentary on the passage.

I was.

My NIV Study Bible had a lengthy commentary on how women don't need to cover. I used to read that and think that some expert knew something that I did not know.

Wrong.

The passage in English is pretty clear and in Greek it's REALLY clear. There is no way out of covering. I looked. Look at I Corinthians chpt. 11 once again and pray.

What other New Testament obedience is legalistic? You might want to ask your detractors that. Giving money? Hospitality? Loving the brethren? Praying? Meeting with other believers?

I'd ask for an example. Chances are the detractor will site the VERY few verses that are directed at women---modesty, teaching men, covering---and say those are passe.

Why would anyone teach that? Because of feminism. It changed the Western world.

Green Rolling Hills and Fog

As I step out to walk the meadows in the early morning fog I am planning to contemplate this verse:

"Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To HIM be the glory both NOW and FOREVER."

The Divine Presence of the Lord

A friend of mine (Susan) shared this Tozer quote with me. I share it with you:

"The loneliness of the Christian results from his walk with God in an ungodly world, a walk that must often take him away from the fellowship of good Christians as well as from that of the unregenerate world. His God-given instincts cry out for companionship with others of his kind, others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his absorption in the love of Christ; and because within his circle of friends there are so few who share his inner experiences he is forced to walk alone.

The unsatisfied longings of the prophets for human understanding caused them to cry out in their complaint, and even our Lord Himself suffered in the same way.

The man [or woman] who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him. He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious shoptalk. For this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious, so he is avoided and the gulf between him and society widens.

He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of the ivory palaces, and finding few or none he, like Mary of old, keeps these things in his heart.

It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else."

From Man - The Dwelling Place of God, Chapter 39: "The Saint Must Walk Alone"

Clevsea's input and comments:

This quote brings out THE aspect of importance when it comes to Christian loneliness. The person described here isn't isolated from other Christians completely but can't find any who have "passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience." The first and obvious problem is the ungodly world, then the shock really hits when this kind of Christian can't find companionship among his fellow Christians.

What I call the "game known as church" has diluted every Spiritual thing down to an undetectable level of real Truth and real Walking with God. The musical bands, the committees, the politics, the man-made rules have taken the spotlight away from what is meaningful and placed it on the meaningless ... to the point where someone like myself is looking high and low for someone who has come to a real relationship with Jesus Christ and can't find that person no matter how diligently I look.

It's about obedience to the Bible and the Lord, for one thing. It's common to find someone who goes to church every week but NEVER prays at home. I mean never. I don't relate to that at all. I can't be snooty and throw my nose in the air with superiority but I also know that they cannot speak my language. If I used terms like "passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience" that would be so foreign to them that they would likely avoid me. I checked with my real-life friends on these kind of topics and got nothing. I reached outside of Protestantism to many groups who are known for this type of thing and still found nothing but ignorance on the concept.

Within Protestantism I have not found fellowship either. I have a found a few books that seem to understand but a book in one's hand is not the same as meeting and knowing and talking with someone who not only understands but is passionate about God's Presence.

Now that I used the word Protestant I want to remind you that I don't consider myself to be a Protestant or a non-Protestant because I'm not protesting anything. I don't use that kind of term on myself, others may call me what they will but I see no reason to label myself with such a strong word when I feel it does not apply.

I'm just a Christ Follower, no more, no less.

I hope my tiny glimpse into why I am drawn to that quote will bring permission to you all to share your opinions and reactions as well.

Love, in Christ's power

Sometimes I put my name to I Cor 13 to make me even more inspired to live for the Lord and submit to His will.

It goes like this:

Clevsea is patient & kind. Clevsea does not envy and she does not boast .... ect.

Or..................

another way would be to read it like this:

I will be patient
I will be kind
I will not envy
I will not not boast
I will not be proud
I will not be rude
I will not self-seek
I will not be easily angered
I will keep no record of wrongs
I will not delight in evil
I will rejoice with the truth
I will protect
I will trust
I will hope
I will persevere
Christ will never fail.

You can't do this stuff in YOUR flesh. Only by being Born-Again** and having Christ IN you would any person be transformed into a loving person. Having the fruit of the Holy Spirit which includes love is the key.

**I mean Born-Again as in John chpt 3 from Jesus' mouth not as a denominational divide.

Let's try to pray over the roar from the microphone

My idea of church is very focused on the tiny bit of info given in Acts.

I see it as a low-key thing. Meeting in a home or down by the river, that's what I read in Acts.

Yes, apostles spoke in the streets and appeared in synagogues on Saturday and before leaders to give the gospel. But when the believers met it seemed pretty human and natural and I'm thinking that the not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together can mean 2 or 3 people praying and talking about Christ.

I'm also concentrating on what church has become. Public Address systems with loud Rock music blaring (in some cases). Coffee bars inside the church building (very common now). Even hand-holding. Did you know that it never says anywhere (in the Bible) that hand-holding is THE method of prayer?

If you think I'm being picky that's okay.

I'm only pointing out that I could sit here and make a very long list of things the churches are doing from the mandatory solo (during or prior to communion) to the amount of money spent on "Coffee-Mate" and I'd not be getting up from my computer for the better part of the day.

I do like meeting with Christians. I like that church-y feeling a lot. But I am at the point where I can see that "some" of what goes on is a game.

What goes on with my quiet time is no game.

We certainly need both.

I need to confess that I did not only recently become aware of some of the funny stuff done in the name of church. My bubble popped about 21 years ago when I had a church job that meant I sat outside the main door during first service just under that speaker that goes into the lobby.

Then I attended 2nd service.

What happened? I heard the same sermon, the same jokes, the same skits, the same "tearing-up" over the same meaningful part.

I learned that 1st service is a dress rehearsal for 2nd service. It was like play with 2 showings back to back.

It took some time to recover from that.

For a time I thought that going to a church with only 1 service was the answer. In fact I've never gone to a church with more than one main service since that time.

But that's not the problem.

The problem is playing a game called "church." This form of church is creeping further and further away from what I read in Acts.

Sorry if I have offended. That is never my intention.

Look out, this is going to hurt a little

I would get my hand on my mouse right now if I were you and get your cursor poised over the little red X in the corner because I have something to say.

Prepare for the worse.

Ignorance is okay in small doses. It's understandable but when it's mixed with arrogance that is a more toxic situation.

America, specifically the USA, wake up a little, would you please?

Will you please come to see that you are not the only country on earth? Please?

I am one of you. I have lived here almost all of my life. I was born here. I am an American. But I still have something to say.

Do you know that there are other countries? Do you ever think about the "death tolls" that other countries live with as a way of life?

Do you remember the 2004 Tsunami that killed 283,000 people?

Can you really understand a number that large?

Did you know that 2 and 1/2 million people died in a flood in China back in the 1930's?

Another 2 and 1/2 million died of starvation in the Congo in 2001 but that's not the total number. It's been 4 million over a 10 year time span all due to a war there.

Did you know that 300,000 people died in a cyclone in India?

Have you forgotten that 222,000 people died in Haiti in 2010?

Lower that number down to 22,000 and it's still huge.

Lower it again to 2,200 and it's still a large amount of people.

Here comes the hurtful part. Is your hand ready? Cursor right over that red X?

The Joplin, Missouri death toll is at 139 people as of today.

I know it's tragic. I can't help but see that. But I also can't forget the truly gigantic tragedies that have occurred in other places....those places outside of the USA.

I would not want my loved ones killed by a tornado in any country. Truly. But I would also not want my loved ones to be killed by floods, cyclones, earthquakes, etc. I know it's sad. I do understand that people have lost their lives and their houses, their photos, their pets, their churches.

I have no wish to diminish those losses. While acknowledging those losses, which are very tragic, I have not lost site that there are other losses happening everyday.

Forgiveness

Are you angry at someone?
Are you frustrated by someone's behavior?
Is there a person or situation that you find that you cannot forgive?



Blessed are the peacemakers.......keep that in your thoughts.

We MUST forgive. As followers of Christ we have no other option.

Forgive as Christ has forgiven you.

Every time I have difficulty forgiving I find that I do the same exact thing that I'm so miffed about-- even if that same exact thing is light-years away from my usual demeanor.

When I see that I am as guilty as the one who I'm feeling unforgiving towards then it becomes very easy to forgive.

I'm sometimes disappointed by people but when I think long enough I will see a time in my life where I did the same. Even if I have to go back a few decades.

We are all frail and sinful and the flesh is weak. Love covers a multitude of sins.

The Lord Jesus bless you as you strive for peace.



They received the word with great eagerness, examining the scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

When husbands are against headcovering THREE RESPONSES

What do I do if my husband does not want me to cover my head?

In this blog entry I am posting 3 different responses that I have written over a span of time. Perhaps something here will be of help to you.



I am asked about this rather frequently. Women will write to me and say that their husbands do not allow them to cover for prayer. The secondary question is whether to obey the Bible and submit to the husband or obey the Bible and cover for prayer.


First Answer:


That is a tough situation. The passage teaches us that we dishonor our head if we pray uncovered. Some think that means the head on top of our neck and some people think that means our husbands. We really cannot tell because the word Kephale just means head and we can only guess which way Paul meant for us to take that but we can't know for sure.


If I were ever in that situation I would still cover for prayer/prophesy because the Lord God outranks my husband but I would be so discreet my husband would not even have to know that I covered. I would cover alone in the morning during my quiet time/prayer time. When I was at church I just would not pray. That's because I won't pray uncovered....so I guess if my husband asked me to stop he would be essentially asking me to stop praying.


I'm not preaching to you...or telling you what to do...not at all. You are you and I am me. You need to do exactly as you are led by the Lord God Almighty and by your husband. It's a tough spot to be in.


I have a daily prayer time for ladies in your situation. I pray everyday that ladies like you will be able to follow the Bible and that the husbands, parents, pastors, and friends that try to hinder that will graciously stop hindering.


Follow up answer:


Remember, I'm only telling you what I would do, not what you "should" do.


There are a lot of things that the Lord tells us to through His Word. May He help me to think of a few good examples off the top of my head.


Be kind to one another

Share each other's burdens

Pray

Give money

Practice hospitality

Meet together

Wait for the Lord

Treat our superiors as if they were Jesus

---

Don't complain

Don't offend others with our bad behavior

Don't Lie

Don't lust

Don't walk in the Flesh

Don't commit adultery


There are so many others. One summer I took a notebook and a New Testament and every time it said to do something, anything, I wrote it down in the notebook. I had to write a lot of the New Testament that summer. My point is that we have what we call "instructions" that we either do or don't.


Submitting to our husbands is one of those and it's probably one of the hardest ones too. How does it stack up as compared to giving money to the poor? Worshiping the Lord? Meeting with other believers? Any husband could forbid any of those. Some of those affect a husband far more than a lady sneaking a scarf on her head during her morning prayers at home in privacy.


It's a little funny that any husband would look at all of the Christian "instructions" and he would only make the selection of "submission to her husband." Yours probably didn't do that. He probably wants you to do a lot of the instructions. He probably likes you to be obedient to the Bible by not gossiping, stealing, lying, being puffed up and conceited. He probably likes you choosing to voluntarily submit to him, with the Lord's help. But why is he against covering? Cultural reasons? Why then did Paul write out 3 reasons for covering? (The three are provided right there in the passage. The Headship order, God, Jesus, Man, Woman. The order of creation, first man, then woman, and the angels.)

Culture was not mentioned. "Because that's how it's done" was not mentioned. "Because that's what our people have always done" was not mentioned. Paul was writing to a bare headed culture. He was rattling their world with this.

The Corinthians were a lot like the USA---really into beauty and beautiful hair and the beautiful body. The artwork proves this. Paul was "un-doing" what the Jews had been doing with the men covering. The men were to uncover and pray.....wow....that was new!!


For 2000 years all different cultures did obey I Cor 11. That is all over the globe, even the USA practiced headcovering for women and bare headed prayer for men for hundreds of years. It only *just* stopped in the 1960's. Just recently. They still cover in South America, in the Eastern continents such as Russian and Korea. Some Catholics never did stop covering. Same for the Amish, the Mennonites, the Plymouth Brethren, the Hutterites, the German Baptists, the Greek Orthodox and many, many more.


Let's really look at why your husband doesn't want you to cover. He doesn't like how it looks. He is not the type of man who likes to stand out. No one else does in your church. It's new to him. He thinks only cults do that. He likes your hair because you're pretty and so is your hair. It might change your whole wardrobe. He has not studied the passage. He has not read it in the Greek. He consulted 1 or 2 commentaries which advised against it. He once knew somebody who did and they were kooky.


I don't know his reasons and I don't want to cast doubt on what is probably a lovely and wonderful man. He probably prays and serves the Lord with great vigor and love. He probably helps out at church and loves you and the family and gives of himself all day long, every single day. I don't know why he chose this for you. If it has anything to do with vanity then perhaps he is picturing you wearing something ugly on your head and looking like a cancer victim. I have pretty hair and I wear it down. I don't cover my hair. I don't wear a bun. I don't even wear a pony tail. My hair flatters my face. I cover my head with a beanie and then my hair is hanging down and showing and I still look like me. I only cover when I pray/prophesy or think that I might have to do either without any warning. The grocery store is an example. I kept going to the store uncovered and strange people kept showing up at the same time as me. (I live in a city.) I would want to pray but my beanie would be in my purse. This happened so often that I got in the habit of wearing a beret or little snood to the store. I wear it to restaurants too and sometimes I remove it as I get to eating and enjoying the conversation and if I'm clearly not praying or prophesying. To me praying is speaking to God and prophesying is (perhaps) speaking for God. To or For.....I don't have a supernatural gift of prophesy.

I will let you think all of that over. I will include you and your husband in my daily prayers. I'm certain that the Lord knows what He is doing in regards to your life and the development of this and how it could possible affect you and all the people you know.


One last thing.........some Christians think that covering is only for Christian group meetings like Sunday mornings and not for private prayer times at home or other places. I don't think that way but many respectable and wonderful and intelligent Christians do. What would your husband think of you only wearing a little cute hat to church services? Nothing flashy or calling attention to you.


I will be praying.


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Another response I wrote in the past:

TWO Questions about Covering

Basically one question is what do women do when their husbands don't get 100% on-board with the covering.

The second question was concern about not looking pretty for one's husband if one were to start covering.


Clevsea's Answers:


Some women will not cover without their husband's blessing. Not me. I would cover regardless.


Why?


Because the headship order as given in the covering passage (I Corinthians 11) clearly shows that my husband is outranked by Jesus. Anytime I personally am faced with choosing between the Lord God and my husband I will choose God. There are times when I place myself under my husband's decisions even though I feel that they are not the Lord's most highest calling for he and I. Covering is not one of those areas for me however and I would choose covering to obey the Lord and His clear teaching in I Cor 11. Sometimes husbands are not even Christians and they have not read the Bible. To me that makes them somewhat untrustworthy to decide some things for me that I can see I am clearly accountable to obey.


But like I said many women will not cover unless their husband is 100% for it. I respect that. They feel that covering would defeat the purpose under those circumstances.


But for me I do not think that submission to one's husband is the whole purpose. The angels are named as one other purpose in I Cor 11. Whether we are speaking of "good" angels or "fallen" angels we cannot know from Paul's letter. Either way it seems best to simply obey what we are taught and not overly concern ourselves with what we cannot know.


Many other ladies with disapproving husbands cover regardless and they either "go for it" and cover in the most religious looking way that they can or they are way more discreet and wear hats more and hanging veils & kapps and bonnets less.


MANY ladies do concern themselves with how they will look. That is not foolish. As the covering passage says we (females) are made for them, not they for us. Part of the marriage is often a physical attraction, not always, but many times. So perhaps certain wives make themselves "attractive" when they are alone with their husbands but they still dress modestly in public and cover.


Taking your husband's sensibilities into account is very smart. You may get to the point where you and he can sit down and look at the zillions of covering websites and view all the options out there. You may be able to discern his taste in coverings by taking the time to do this.


There are ladies that I have known who freaked their husbands out, so to speak, by their choices and they later learned how important their physical appearance is/was to their husbands. This is why I say it is not a foolish struggle. A wise wife gives thought to this.


If a lady is married to such a man then it is possible to only cover for prayer and not when going places with the husband. I know we'd like to pray all the time but this is one compromise that has worked for some marriages.


Keep praying and seeking the Lord Jesus Christ for your clothing and covering choices. He will guide you and then you will obey that guidance. Sometimes you and I will choose obedience to the Lord over obedience to the husband but that too will be rewarded in some way in the Lord's timing.


Let me add that many husbands change. This is the truth.


At first they are frightened. The "frumps" scare them. They like tight clothes or they think that they do. After some time passes many, many husbands wind up SEEING the truth and thanking their wives for covering up their bodies and heads. They will eventually see the worldly women's attire and start to "wake up" to how ungodly it is. Then the see their wives with new eyes and realise that she is saving her charms for privacy. And....they like it after all!!

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Yet another response:

Common Question -- My husband doesn't want me to cover

Such a common question for the new covering woman. After studying, praying and coming under the conviction to cover she finds out her husband disapproves to a big extent. In fact he even asks her not to cover. Many times this is a non-believer in Christ Jesus and someone who doesn't know the Bible or will not obey the Bible.

Recently this question was asked on a Yahoo group. In this case the husband said he wanted to see his wife's hair and not to have it covered.

I have answered this at other times but these are today's answers to this question.



Here is my input.............



A few ideas:

#1) Cover secretly when you pray at home. No one needs to know what is on your head during your private prayer time.

#2) Wear a beret with your hair down. That is how I cover. Details below.

#3) Collect some hoodies. They come in shirts and in sweat shirts. You can use the hood as a covering when needed.

#4) If he works in the day time you can probably wear whatever you want to while he is away and then go bare-headed when he's home.

As to the theology of what to do I lean this way: When and if I have to choose between obeying my husband and obeying the Lord God concerning any CLEAR teaching found in the Bible then I choose God over my husband. Some say, "Hey, that's not submission to your husband."

Yes, I'm aware of that. But that very teaching comes from the Bible, doesn't it? The Bible is the source of the teaching on wifely submission.

With some things it's EASY to know "when" to choose the Bible over the husband who does not believe in the Bible. There are many, many things you would not do just because he told you to.

I do teach others to follow their husbands. I obey mine. It's Biblical. However, on this topic I would cover regardless of what my husband said if he was trying to get me not to. But I would be nice. I would not flaunt it. I would try to find a covering that he could stand.

I wear a "sur la tete Beret 11 1/2 inch diameter beret" available for $13.95 at the Villiage Hat Shop which is a large on-line store. They don't wear out and come in many colors. It's not my only covering but it is my main covering. When covering I don't put my hair up. This is an option for women who have disapproving husbands.

Lastly, there are some husbands who object to head covering and/or modesty, it happens. But SOME of these men change their minds and approve of it in short time.

You'll start to look normal with some kind of covering on and look "funny" when you're not covered.

You are going to find that at least 50% of covering women will think differently than what I just shared. At least half think that covering is wrapped up in submission and ought to not be done if the husband says "no." That's okay that they don't agree with me. I'm not asserting myself as a "know-it-all" I am only sharing what I do and what I think.

Discernment

Discernment is a word that Christians use frequently, even flippantly.

I'm concerned by some things that have been "discerned" by those around me.

As I think about the quiet attention it takes to truly discern something I grow concerned by people allowing themselves to be misled by the enemies of God.

Keep yourself aware of Jesus. Keep yourself aware that evil forces can pretend to be good, of the light, even to be God.

Darkness and light have nothing to do with each other but some of the dark entities can impersonate angels of light. Beware.

Unbelievers have nothing in common with believers but keep in mind that wolves can disguise themselves as sheep. Don't ignore that as some Sunday School teaching from your youth.

Voices, feelings, ideas ... they can come from YOUR imagination ! They can be generated from the Lord Jesus and they can be faked by your enemies.

Don't obey every voice, feeling and idea you get without proper discernment. Take it to prayer. The Lord will make things clear to you when you seek HIM. When you quiet yourself enough to truly discern Him. Is it really Him speaking into your mind/heart?

Don't you want to know for sure?

The Fear of Covering

I remember the fear to cover so very well.

Nobody covers where I live.

The one church that practises covering is in the next county and they only wear a covering to meeting, not in other circumstances. That's okay with me btw, that they have opted to cover that way.

I cover about 80% of the day so that I can pray a lot. I don't pray uncovered. That means that even if I bumped into a fellow coverer at the store they would not be covered.

I've attended upwards of 30 churches in my 28 years of following the Lord Christ. There are no coverings on any women ever. Not if the church has 7000 members and not if they have 10. Just bare heads and fairly wild clothes too.

So it's a big deal to have anything on your head and I felt so conspicuous every day, all day.

I had actual heart-beating fear! I have no problem admitting this.

I tried to be sneaky.

The first Bible study I attended as a new coverer met in a home on a Wednesday night. Of course no one covered. Because it was Summer time I thought I could wear a "sun-dress" and a straw hat and look okay.

Nope.

It did not work!

After about 5 meetings the pastor who was leading the group called me out on it and said, that's a headcovering isn't it? He then proceeded to chastise me for the whole meeting. Then he did that every meeting! I endured for quite a few meetings. I did not want to be focused on. I was taking up group time due to my hat!

I did not want to debate him because I had studied women teaching men from Paul's epistles and that's a stupid place to find yourself. Attempting to teach a man that women ought not teach a man is ridiculous. This pastor thought it was okay for women to teach men and to argue with them.

It was so awful that I had to stop going. What kept me strong was knowing the I Cor 11 passage like the back of my hand. I can do Greek Word studies (like many women can) and I "Greeked out" the passage to such a degree that nobody could sway me.

What I am saying is this. I knew I had to cover and I could not find a way out of covering due to I Cor 11. I knew that I didn't want attention in anyway for this. I wanted to blend in and be liked by everybody. That's what I'm used to. People like me. Who wants to give them a reason to think you're a kook? A weirdo? Someone to avoid?

Sometimes I snuck a covering on after every head was bowed at church--it was that bad for me. Sometimes I slipped a hoodie over my head in secret.

Sometimes I put on the most noticeable covering that could not be anything but a religious covering and went on out into public boldly.

I was hyper-aware!! But after time I stopped being aware at all.

It's been 21 years now and I hardly think about it. But I do remember the fear and I have had people argue with me, leave my friendship and more. Regardless of what others think I am going to obey the New Testament and I'm doing this with the great confidence of knowing the passage.

I know what it's like to being the only coverer in an entire county and I want to give support to any coverer who needs it.

May the Lord strengthen all those who are afraid and lead them to a place where they may be supported.

Bible Reading is crucial

Let's read our Bibles this week.

Will you commit to daily reading? Even if only one sentence?

I know you will benefit.

There are many people that I know that have recently plunged into their Bibles and they are FULL of surprises and valuable insights and extremely happy to get TRUTH into their lives.

The way things are in many of the churches (in the USA) people are not really learning the Bible. They "think" that they are, but they are not always. They FIND OUT when they read for themselves how greatly deceived they have been.

The "social" gospel as it's sometimes called, has blinded many. Church has become a "club" meeting much like going to the Elks, or to a Country Club for socialization.

I'm not one to accuse ministries and throw around alarming emails. If you know me at all then you know this is true.

What I'm attempting to do here is get you into the Word of God anyway that I can for your own benefit, not mine.

Two weeks ago I was telling a woman that reading the Bible is a very good and needed thing for her to do. She says she is a Christian and I know what church she attends. I used to go there. As I advised her to get reading I mentioned that Bible reading is the BEST way to be "cult-proof" to which she remarked, "What is a cult?"

Okay, there you have it. But that's not all. As she and I went over some Bible passages for one hour it was clear that she did not know the Old Testament from the New Testament. She did not know the gospels from the epistles, she had zero Bible knowledge. She attended church for over 1 year and came out knowing very little. She only knows what the pastor said in the way of sermons. I've checked with myself and others that went there about what we recall from these sermons. You know what? It appears that those who attend his church, those I know, have zero recall. Isn't that a little bit strange? I think so.

I think it means there is very little content, at least nothing memorable.

I also know that folks don't take a Bible with them when they go on Sundays. I know from attending the mid-week home groups that the regulars who have attended there for over 10 years cannot turn to I Corinthians or Romans because they don't know where that is in the Bible and they freely admit that they have never read major portions of the Bible. One grown man from there recently remarked that He did not know that the Holy Spirit is "in" the believers of Christ. He got out a pencil and made a note of that when one of my children mentioned the concept in an ordinary conversation. This is someone clearly not well versed in Romans, Galatians and many other passages yet he never misses a Sunday at a so-called Bible believing church.

I also know that the "token" verse on the overhead screen is not enough to feed and nourish a Christian. It would be like living off of one green bean a week. It just doesn't work. A physical body would perish! What would one's spirit do with such a lack of nourishment?

I can tell you the "fruit" of this particular church but it would not be "G" rated. I know because I have seen the "fruit" of this type of "church" ministry.

You will know THEM by their fruit---plain and simple!!

When the fruit is adultery and leaving the faith then you're not witnessing the fruit of the Holy Spirit which is so evident that it cannot be mistaken for flesh (sin nature).

What is even more frightening is that I'm not just picking on this one church in any sense of the word and it's not the ONLY church in my city that is ignoring the Bible and having the same outcome.

I know another Christian woman who attended a similar church very near by. We met for discipleship for over one year. She did not know who Judas was. This positively floored me. She has gone to church her entire life!! Her entire life!! The "Judas" example is only an example and certainly not the only bit of information that she lacked.

I don't want to sling mud at anyone. I only want to wake up possibly one or two of you that might be spiritually asleep. You might be one of two that goes to church regularly and thinks that you are gaining spiritual strenght and Biblical knowledge. Yet, you might find that by getting into God's Word for yourself that there is a giant, huge, bigger than you yet know world of knowledge about our God, about our relation to Him, and about our very salvation.

Please try. Please pick up your Bible regardless of how busy you are and read some of it.

Side NOTE: The women I met with 2 weeks ago also freely admits that she doesn't know "how" to pray. How does she walk with the Lord? How does she know HIM or the things OF HIM? She doesn't read the Bible and never has, she doesn't pray and she no longer attends the game playing church that seemingly does not feed the flock. I can't understand how she "follows" Christ Jesus with no knowledge and no contact with Him.

And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.~~Jesus

Question & Answer on Headcovering

Question:

Lori asks: Have you ever been confronted with the "two or three witnesses" argument against the headcovering? A friend of ours was at one time convinced that unless a commandment appears two or three times in the Scripture (thereby constituting the "two or three witnesses"), the matter hasn't been fully "established" as a truth... (see Deut 19:15)


Clevsea's Answer:


I have heard that there are Christian denominations that set policy that way.

Some groups decide that if a teaching appears both in the Old Testament and again in the New Testament then they will obey it.

Some groups agreed amongst themselves that if a teaching is written a total of 2 times in the New Testament, then they will obey it. Some groups have even said three times in the NT and then they will obey it.

To me these are man-made policies. I once attended a church that followed one of the above methods. It was the elders who decided to do things that way.

I personally feel that I will personally stand before God---in fact I already do---and that my obedience will be laid bare before HIM. Even now He sees all. My heart, my motives, my actions. He sees what I decide to obey and what I cast aside as un-needed or not pertaining to me.

I personally don't think that I can "fool" the Lord God for one second and He will know if I try to "hide behind" my elders at my local assembly and try to claim that I was following what they had set as policy.

Make an extreme example and it gets easier to understand. If the elders at my local assembly set a policy that is sinful, clearly sinful (insert your own sin) and I do that under their authority then I still am sinning.

The other place in Scripture where the words "2 or 3 witnesses" are used is here:


Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. ~~ I Tim 5

That teaching safeguards an elder from one liar (with a false accusation) who could ruin their reputation and has nothing to do with whether we will obey a clear teaching from I Cor 11.

The headcovering teaching was obeyed for 2000 years. Christian believers followed the teaching until the 1960's when all manner of sin emerged in Western Society. Bra burning was in style as women marched in the streets. There was that misunderstanding about what the Catholics did and did not change about headcovering at the same time.

To not obey I Cor 11 is a new teaching. The funny part is that a lot of churches do obey the second half of I Cor 11 and they even read it every Sunday as they take the Lord's Supper.

So many New Testament passages could be set aside and not obeyed if mankind follows the 2 or 3 "mentions" and decided that was some kind of oracle.

Every Christian following Christ needs to do just that. Follow Him. Seek Him.

Pray and read the Bible and you'll find that many times you have to ignore human teaching when it conflicts with Biblical teaching.

The Sleepy Disciples

I recently remembered what I had seen the last time I read the gospels. I was struck by this in Luke 22:44-46

~~~~ And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. When He rose up from prayer, and had come to His disciples, He found them sleeping from sorrow. Then He said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray, lest you enter into temptation.” ~~~~~

The disciples were sleeping from SORROW --- somehow I had missed that in my other readings.

I'm rather amazed at that because I usually think less of them for falling asleep (as if I would have done much better). Probably not if I were honest. The flesh is indeed weak.

Men's Modesty

I came across this on a Quaker group and I wrote to the author and got permission to quote him.

I think he makes several interesting points here. Some pertain to women's modesty too.

His name is k.d. Roberts and again I received permission to quote this.

Don't take it elsewhere please.

Any discussion points here?

I think this could spark a good conversation for modest dressers.

**** Here it is:

i wear the broadbrim [a hat that lasts him 10 years], and the monochrome clothing, and the leather suspenders, and all that, along with the rest of the modified plain quaker conservative getup, for several reasons:

--it identifies me to other plain friends immediately as someone who follows a similar witness.

--it identifies me to non-friends as someone who might have something interesting to say about god. so i get asked a lot of questions by strangers.

--it identifies me to legal authorities as someone who is likely not to react in a typical fashion in a courtroom. in the past, not raising my hand to swear cost me a lot of money, when i was dressed like the dominant culture dresses. now i don't take off my hat in a courtroom either, but they let me alone, being pre-warned.

--it keeps me out of marginal places, such as strip clubs and bar rooms, because i don't fit in.

--it reminds me constantly that i represent a faith tradition that is larger and more important than myself or my own dignity, and therefore i am constantly called to attempt to be better than i otherwise would be.

simplicity is peripheral to why i wear what i wear, although the fact that it all looks the same simplifies my presentation to the non-plain world. economy is not involved at all, although i guess i spend about $75 per year on clothes, which includes two straw hats, two pairs of trousers, a shirt or two, and a pair of shoes. i drive a truck for a living, and i'm rough on clothing. the broadbrim is nice because it keeps the rain and snow off my face and neck while i work. the suspenders are nice because without them my trousers fall down.

i don't sweat the philosophy too much.

Christians: Do you want to commit to One Hour a Day?

Anyone want to commit to One Hour a Day?

I have it laid on me to find out if any Christians are interested in committing to one hour a day of prayer/Bible reading.

I know that I am and I know one other on-line friend who is.

Anyone else?

Let me know.

Perhaps we can have a "team" blogspot for this purpose.

Zephaniah 3:17~~~

The LORD your God in your midst,

The Mighty One, will save;

He will rejoice over you with gladness,

He will quiet you with His love,

He will rejoice over you with singing.

What I'm not

I have a profile here that does very little to describe me.

I have had it on my mind for a while now to try to describe myself.

Like always, I cannot seem to do that. I can't seem to find that one phrase that sums it up so I feel led to say "what I am not."

I am not a Catholic, I am not a Protestant. I am not a Lutheran, not a Quaker. I'm not a Methodist, not a Mennonite. I'm not Amish, not a Gothardite, not Pentecostal, not Anglican, not a Two by Two, not a Baptist. I'm not Reformed or unreformed. I'm not Evangelical-Free, not LDS, not Plymouth Brethren or any other Brethren. I'm not even "non-denominational" because oddly enough that is a denomination that has seminaries for their pastors to graduate from. I'm also not Charismatic, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Torah Observant, Holiness, or Nazarene. I'm not a hybrid like Christian Buddhist or any kind of "kingdom now" or "replacement" theorist. It goes without saying (at this point) that I'm not Seventh Day Adventist, not "Word Faith" or "Name it and Claim it" and I'm not Church of Christ.

The list goes on and on and on .........

Anything I left out---I'm probably not that either.

I don't like to use terms like "Calvinistic" because it sounds like I'm a disciple of John Calvin. Any other man's name you can think of and I will probably feel the same way.

The very early Christians were splitting into "named" groups too. It appears to be convenient. It appears to be human nature. Paul writes, "each of you says, 'I am of Paul' or 'I am of Apollos,' or I am of Cephas,' or 'I am of Christ.'" ---that's what I would have said, by the way. But even that is division. Paul goes on to say, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?"

A few lines later Paul adds, "For when one says, 'I am of Paul, and another, 'I am of Apollos,' are you not carnal?" Paul goes on the to explain that Christ is THE foundation and he asks this:

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

"Let no one boast in men ... you are Christ's and Christ is God's."

All of the above is found in I Corinthians.

In the book of Romans Paul writes, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not his."

and

"if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

and

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God."

because, "The Lord is the Spirit" according to II Cor 3:17 and Phil 1:19 this means that Jesus Christ is IN those who believe in Him and follow Him.

Which brings me back to what I am.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I know that doesn't say much in the way of distinguishing what "branch" of Christianity best describes me.

If I say I have Jesus' Spirit in me that aligns me with the Pentecostals and/or the Charismatics in some people's mind.

If I say I wear a headcovering many people will jump to Amish or Mennonite to categorize me.

If I say there is only ONE church, one body, one bride of Christ (which is true) then many will assume I am Catholic.

If I say that I rely solely on the Word of God (the Bible) then the word "fundamentalism" pops up.

If I dress in plain attire that can bring up Quakerism--especially if the guesser knows how important "quiet contemplation" is to me and how I yearn for an unprogrammed meeting only.

What one word would work? What one phrase? "Bible believing Born Again Christian" seems to say it in one phrase but I have had people tell me that the word "Born Again" is abrasive and sounds judgmental and that we ought to avoid the term.

Such a world we live in.

So clearly we are near the Great Apostasy, aka the great falling away. Clearly the Christians are divided and "grouped off" and settled into denominations just like they were at the very begining of the Christian Church history.

People bicker over "inter-denominationalism" and "ecumenism" and some actually think that the building they walk into is the Church. No, that's not true as any student of the Bible can sooner or later see for themselves.

The church is the people, not the building.

Lastly, I want to share that there are so many "kicks" out there to choose from, to get involved with. It makes my head spin. Evidently some people will fall for anything and they can easily lose years of their lives following a "kick" that they later come to realize was not the path they were to be on.

Next time someone asks me what I am I will be at a loss for words, like so many times before. No one has time to hear my long list of what I am not and very few have the patience or true curiosity to find out what I am.

Also, allow me to add that I have lots and lots of Quaker friends, Catholic friends, Pentecostal friends, Anglican friends, Mennonite and Baptist friends, to name a few. They like me and I like them. They, as people, are not the problem and I have no problem with them.

I even have a tiny bit of envy that they have found a title, word or phrase that speaks for them.

So there is peace between us. Amen to that.

We Are the Exiles, by John Michael Talbot

We Are The Exiles

John Michael Talbot's Lyrics

Night is our diocese

Silence our ministry

Poverty our love

Helplessness our cry

Beyond the scope of sight or sound

We dwell upon the air

Intercede for this world’s gain

Yet unthinkable to share

Those who vow lie buried

In the cloistered hermitage

The speechless and gray granite

House the quiet barefoot child

Planted deep within the soil

Of contemplation’s light

Sealed within the darkness ever dying ever born

We are exiles in the far end of solitude

We are the exiles living as listeners

With hearts attending to the skies we cannot comprehend

Yet waiting for the first far drums of Christ the coming King

Planted like sentinels upon the world's frontier in exile we sing

Night is our diocese

Silence our ministry

Poverty our love

And helplessness our cry

"We Are The Exiles" From the: "Mediatations from Solitude" Album Not to be confused with: "Meditations in the Spirit" Album These song lyrics are adapted from a small portion of Thomas Merton's Poem: "The Quickening of St. John the Baptist--On the Contemplative Vocation" 1949

Follow Me, I'll lead you home

Follow Me; I'll lead you home
David Meece 1977
A simple banjo song of faith
You can hear a snippet on David Meece dot com
Look for "I just Call on You."


Thought I knew which way to go
Down that long and winding road
I thought no matter how the wind might blow
I could make it on my own

But the storm winds grew so cold
When the night began to fall
I fell down frightened in that dusty road
When I heard a distant call

Refrain:
Follow me, I’ll lead you home
I’ve been down this road before
There’s no need for you to be alone
I’ll lead the way – you tag along


So I walked on through the rain
Though my spirit rocked and tossed
Friend I couldn’t see a thing
But I knew He wasn’t lost
When the skies began to clear
All my worries disappeared
He pointed to a cross upon a hill
Then He turned so I could hear

Follow me I’ll lead you home
I’ve been down this road before
There’s no need for you to be alone
Just follow me – I’ll lead you home

Follow Jesus

"Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Mark 8:34

I know that is an obvious verse but I have this question: How many times can we read this and not understand?

Our Lord Jesus also said: "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

Another well-known passage of Scripture but are we truly believing these words?

One more ... "Shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him ... when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:7-8

Someone will be helped by these verses. I know this.

Live your life--love your neighbor

It is important to limit your computer time and stay current in your real life.

Everything comes first before computer time. That includes prayer, Bible reading, wife-ing, mothering, cooking, cleaning, loving your neighbor and so much more.

This cyber fellowship is important and very vital to those who cannot find like-minded lady friends. It's not wrong to belong to a Yahoo group, or to read wholesome blogs (in my opinion) but for some ladies it becomes wrong when they cannot manage their time well.

Being "able" to communicate this way is certainly very handy. It puts you in touch with people from all over the world that you could not otherwise know. However, don't neglect your real-life and your real-life friends.

I lead some on-line discussion groups and I never worry about a quiet group. I always hope that our members are praying, reading, and living peacefully with those they know. It's a good sign that they living in the real world.

Knowing the Bible

Knowing the Bible; what it can do and can't do.

Knowing the Bible is not salvation.

Knowing the Bible can help make you cult proof. Keep you from error.

Jesus answered the Sadducees one time with, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."

Our Savior Jesus Christ is the Word incarnate and if we want to know Him we ought to know our Bibles.

Owning a Bible will not get you into heaven.

Underlining passages will not help you with the penality of sin.

Good, honest, prayerful Bible study does lead to true knowledge.

Our Lord does not lie. His Words are true and what He says comes to pass.

Knowing the Bible leads you to the truth and to Jesus.

This is the way to salvation: Following Jesus Christ. Your sins will be put on Jesus Christ and His death will take THE place of YOUR death. You will never partake in the second death.

The Bible is a vehicle, not the final destination. Let's not neglect it. Let's obey it, know it and preach it.

II Timothy 4 :2-5 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Isaiah Chapter 48~~ “Hear this, O house of Jacob, Who are called by the name of Israel, And have come forth from the wellsprings of Judah; Who swear by the name of the LORD, And make mention of the God of Israel, But not in truth or in righteousness; For they call themselves after the holy city, And lean on the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is His name: “ I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.

Because I knew that you were obstinate, And your neck was an iron sinew, And your brow bronze, Even from the beginning I have declared it to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you, Lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them, And my carved image and my molded image Have commanded them.’

“ You have heard; See all this. And will you not declare it? I have made you hear new things from this time, Even hidden things, and you did not know them. They are created now and not from the beginning; And before this day you have not heard them, Lest you should say, ‘Of course I knew them.’ Surely you did not hear, Surely you did not know; Surely from long ago your ear was not opened. For I knew that you would deal very treacherously, And were called a transgressor from the womb.

“ For My name’s sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

“ Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.

“ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.

“ Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.” Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “ I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.

Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea. Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name would not have been cut off Nor destroyed from before Me.”

Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans! With a voice of singing, Declare, proclaim this, Utter it to the end of the earth; Say, “The LORD has redeemed His servant Jacob!” And they did not thirst When He led them through the deserts; He caused the waters to flow from the rock for them; He also split the rock, and the waters gushed out.

“ There is no peace,” says the LORD, “for the wicked.”

The Hair is not "the" covering

You probably know that I've answered this before but only just today the issue of "hair" as covering has come up once again. This time with the twist found in the word "instead" found in v 15 -- the entire teaching is I Corinthians 11:1-16.

Many smart women read the I Cor 11 passage and are led astray by commentaries and the confusion of the translation using the word "covering" for both the covering and for the hair. Really smart women check it out in Greek and some of those stumble over the word "instead" thinking they have Found something that lesser Christians have missed. They read the passage in a transliteration and think that their hair is their covering. Let me explain why it is not.

There are many issues hidden by the translation from Greek into English. The biggest one is that from v 5 through v 13 the Greek is using the word Katakalupto and akatakalupto. The "a" in front of the word means "not" the same as when "a" is put in front of the word moral.

Then, at the very end of the teaching a whole different word is used and that is about the hair. That word is peribolaion which is only used one other time in the Bible. The BEST translation of peribolaion is Vest or mantle.

Long hair is like a vest or mantle. Peribolaion also means something you can throw around oneself like a shawl.

At the close of the passage the teaching is totally different than putting a covering, a katakalupto, on your head. The passage in Greek teaches women to do that and in addition it teaches that your long hair is like a vest. When the passage says, "instead" the hair is given instead of a covering the Greek is saying that the hair is given instead of a vest, not instead of the head covering katakalupto.

I know it's difficult. I know it would have "popped" out so much more clearly if the translators had simply translated the close of the passage the way the Greek does ...

"A woman/wife is have long hair, glory to her it is; for the long hair instead of a vest is given to her."

That is the exact teaching in Greek.

There is no way the Bible is saying wear your hair instead of your vest. It's saying that your long hair could be vest-like, mantle-like it covers that well. But the passage does not say that your hair/vest is THE covering, the katakalupto, so painstakingly taught above.

If the hair is THE covering then men need to take their hair off to pray or prophesy and it makes the passage silly because people don't put on hair and take off hair. The verb tense is in the "putting" on. An action; that's the tense when teaching the katakalupto covering.

I too looked for any way to get out of covering. Any way to get out of it would have worked for me. I too noticed that with 3 strong reasons given in the passage to cover I could not find an excuse.

The headship order = God, Jesus, Man, Woman
The order of creation = man, then woman
The Angels = which have been around a long time

No cultural reason is given, only "long-term" reasons are given.

This is why Christians obeyed I Cor 11 for 2000 years and only stopped around 40 or 50 years ago. Coverers are outnumbered now, but that was not the case for 2000 years. This "not" covering situation is new in church history.

Sit Alone and Keep Quiet

I asked for a verse to teach me this morning and I turned to this in Lamentations of all places:

The Lord is good to those who wait for Him,

to the soul who seeks Him.

It is good that one should hope and wait quietly

for the salvation of the Lord.

Let him sit alone and keep silent

What's Clevsea reading?

I'm glad you asked.

Usually the Bible of course, almost exclusively, but I make exceptions.

I finished "Amish Grace" which is very well-known now. I have read more Amish books than average but this one was worth the time because it is a healthy look at Biblical Forgiveness.

I'm not Amish or Mennonite but I have similarities with them.

Today I picked up, "Pagan Christianity?" copyright 2002, by Viola & Barna.

I don't know if I agree with it or not because I'm still in the introduction. But I have found sentences that I like:

"An organic church is simply a church that is born out of spiritual life instead of constructed by human institutions and held together by religious programs."

and........

"[some Christians] are weary of being sent off to complete assignments, memorise facts and passages, and engage in simplistic practices that do not draw them into God's presence."

the back cover says:

"...the problems that emerge when the church functions more like a business organization than the living organism it was created to be."

Sounds good doesn't it?

We will see. I have high hopes that I will like it enough to recommend it to others and then I can shut up and just point at their work. It will save me time and words.

It's bright RED cover already caused the pagan at the health food store to ask me what it was about. I was able to say, "It's about how the Christian church doesn't do much of what the Bible actually said to do and instead picked up ideas from the culture around them."

He said, "Hmmm, sounds really, really good."

Okay then, I can use this book as a conversation starter in public, Good to know.

Allow me to raise my voice a little. Ready?

I WANT TO BE DRAWN INTO THE PRESENSE OF GOD.

Clear?

I don't want to be entertained, pampered, lied to and distracted to death.

As I said recently church is too loud and distracts from the Lord in my opinion. I can hardly find a church that I can pray in for the PA system, they may as well beat on marching drums up and down the aisles.

I think I've made my point---thanks for listening.